1072 lines
40 KiB
HTML
1072 lines
40 KiB
HTML
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
|
|
<html>
|
|
<version>3</version>
|
|
<head>
|
|
<title>Transcript SFP#51</title>
|
|
</head>
|
|
<body>
|
|
|
|
<h1>SFP#51: Policy and EU: Policy and EU: The challenges for public code in public administration!</h1>
|
|
|
|
<p><a href="/news/podcast/2026/episode-51.html">SFP#51 Policy and EU: The challenges for public code in public administration!</a></p>
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
<pre class="transcript">
|
|
<div class="content-centered"><h1 class="post-title"><a>Back to the episode SFP#51</a></h1>
|
|
|
|
|
|
WEBVTT
|
|
|
|
00:00.000 --> 00:17.920
|
|
Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.
|
|
|
|
00:17.920 --> 00:22.860
|
|
Thank you so much for listening to this podcast and without you and your support, this
|
|
|
|
00:22.860 --> 00:24.680
|
|
podcast would not be possible.
|
|
|
|
00:24.680 --> 00:29.680
|
|
Thank you so much for being there and donating to the FSFE or also for sharing the Software
|
|
|
|
00:29.680 --> 00:30.680
|
|
Freedom Podcast.
|
|
|
|
00:30.680 --> 00:33.720
|
|
Thank you, our dear dear listener.
|
|
|
|
00:33.720 --> 00:37.520
|
|
This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe.
|
|
|
|
00:37.520 --> 00:43.240
|
|
We are a charity that empowers users to control technology and I'm Bonnie Mehring.
|
|
|
|
00:43.240 --> 00:46.720
|
|
Today, we are here with two guests.
|
|
|
|
00:46.720 --> 00:53.760
|
|
Our first guest is Petteri Kivimäki, the CTO of the Nordic Institute for Interoperability
|
|
|
|
00:53.760 --> 00:55.760
|
|
Solutions, also called NIIS.
|
|
|
|
00:56.240 --> 01:00.320
|
|
Hello Petteri, I'm very, very happy that you made it to the Software Freedom Podcast.
|
|
|
|
01:00.320 --> 01:02.120
|
|
Thank you so much for the time.
|
|
|
|
01:02.120 --> 01:08.360
|
|
Hello, thank you very much for the invitation and I'm very glad to be here today.
|
|
|
|
01:08.360 --> 01:12.000
|
|
Also on my side, I'm very happy.
|
|
|
|
01:12.000 --> 01:17.400
|
|
We also have a second guest today and that's my colleague Johannes Näder from the Free
|
|
|
|
01:17.400 --> 01:18.400
|
|
Software Foundation Europe.
|
|
|
|
01:18.400 --> 01:23.360
|
|
Hello Johannes, thank you so much for making time as well and thank you so much for joining
|
|
|
|
01:23.360 --> 01:26.200
|
|
us here today in our talk.
|
|
|
|
01:26.200 --> 01:27.520
|
|
Hi, Bonnie, hi Petteri.
|
|
|
|
01:27.520 --> 01:30.080
|
|
Yeah, it's good to be back.
|
|
|
|
01:30.080 --> 01:36.160
|
|
So in this podcast, we will be talking about public code and public administrations, but
|
|
|
|
01:36.160 --> 01:41.160
|
|
before we get to the core, Petteri, can you give us some background and let our listeners
|
|
|
|
01:41.160 --> 01:44.760
|
|
know how you first came in contact with Free Software?
|
|
|
|
01:44.760 --> 01:46.960
|
|
Yeah, certainly.
|
|
|
|
01:46.960 --> 01:56.200
|
|
I think that the very first contact with Free Software was probably almost, well, 20 years
|
|
|
|
01:56.200 --> 02:06.200
|
|
ago, when I started to do programming, so I started with PHP and then Java and of course
|
|
|
|
02:06.200 --> 02:13.760
|
|
many libraries that I was using, they were Free Software, even if back then I didn't
|
|
|
|
02:13.760 --> 02:15.880
|
|
pay much thought to it.
|
|
|
|
02:15.880 --> 02:23.080
|
|
But then later, when I worked at the National Library of Finland, I got more involved with
|
|
|
|
02:23.080 --> 02:31.920
|
|
open source and how open source is used in different kind of projects on a national level.
|
|
|
|
02:31.920 --> 02:38.640
|
|
And then, of course, later with X-Road, it has played even more important role in my
|
|
|
|
02:38.640 --> 02:45.120
|
|
work and also when it comes to my hobbies that I do at my spare time.
|
|
|
|
02:45.120 --> 02:50.000
|
|
Oh, so you have like a deep rooted connection with Free Software there?
|
|
|
|
02:50.000 --> 02:56.080
|
|
Is it usual that in Finland Free Software is around in libraries and that it's like available?
|
|
|
|
02:56.080 --> 03:00.880
|
|
Yeah, nowadays it's quite common.
|
|
|
|
03:00.880 --> 03:08.200
|
|
So the National Library of Finland, they are hosting some national services for other
|
|
|
|
03:08.200 --> 03:15.200
|
|
libraries and for citizens that are based on open source, then they also do some hosting
|
|
|
|
03:15.200 --> 03:19.240
|
|
services and they are using open source software for that.
|
|
|
|
03:19.240 --> 03:25.240
|
|
They also have many, many developers working directly for them and they are well, kind
|
|
|
|
03:25.240 --> 03:31.560
|
|
of a development house and they also contribute to open source projects.
|
|
|
|
03:31.560 --> 03:39.160
|
|
So one could say that it plays very important role in that sector or some people may be
|
|
|
|
03:39.160 --> 03:48.240
|
|
it's surprising but yeah, I've been working in the library sector before so yeah, for
|
|
|
|
03:48.240 --> 03:56.600
|
|
me, it's kind of natural because libraries also work with open data, open access so why
|
|
|
|
03:56.600 --> 03:59.000
|
|
not open source as well.
|
|
|
|
03:59.000 --> 04:02.000
|
|
Johannes, what's your take on it?
|
|
|
|
04:02.000 --> 04:06.880
|
|
Yeah, for me, it's pretty much the same and I would say this is a, yeah, of course, a personal
|
|
|
|
04:06.880 --> 04:12.720
|
|
thing and personal IT use and also then the society component of it.
|
|
|
|
04:12.720 --> 04:18.120
|
|
For personal or the person, my personal view and my personal experience, it became
|
|
|
|
04:18.120 --> 04:23.960
|
|
important so soon after I bought my first computer back when I was a teenager so long
|
|
|
|
04:23.960 --> 04:30.440
|
|
time ago and of course it came with a proprietary operating system and proprietary software preinstalled
|
|
|
|
04:30.440 --> 04:32.120
|
|
and I never had a choice there.
|
|
|
|
04:32.120 --> 04:37.600
|
|
So this idea of having a choice when you start using Free Software, this already was
|
|
|
|
04:37.600 --> 04:42.440
|
|
something, yeah, something new and intriguing and important for me back at the time and
|
|
|
|
04:42.440 --> 04:48.840
|
|
then also seeing that I actually would be in the position to have control over what
|
|
|
|
04:48.840 --> 04:53.840
|
|
my computer does to my data to the things I do with the computer, how I can control
|
|
|
|
04:53.840 --> 04:59.880
|
|
what the computer does, how I can change the way the computer does things, the software
|
|
|
|
04:59.880 --> 05:08.280
|
|
does things, this really became more and more important to me so this idea of controlling
|
|
|
|
05:08.280 --> 05:11.640
|
|
ever more important part of my life, the digital life.
|
|
|
|
05:11.640 --> 05:17.040
|
|
Yeah, the society component is pretty much the same in a large scale so if we as a society
|
|
|
|
05:17.040 --> 05:22.200
|
|
want to be able to control the infrastructure, the digital infrastructure that we rely on
|
|
|
|
05:22.200 --> 05:30.080
|
|
that is very, very important for every aspect of society, also for our democracy, also
|
|
|
|
05:30.080 --> 05:37.320
|
|
for politics and for how our administrations work, then I think Free Software is the
|
|
|
|
05:37.320 --> 05:45.160
|
|
way to go and the only way to go because only with Free Software we can be free of dependencies
|
|
|
|
05:45.160 --> 05:55.320
|
|
from just one vendor who can have the control over this state infrastructure, this public
|
|
|
|
05:55.320 --> 06:03.280
|
|
administration infrastructure and I think it's important to now regain this digital sovereignty
|
|
|
|
06:03.280 --> 06:08.440
|
|
through Free Software and I think this works only with Free Software, there's no other
|
|
|
|
06:08.440 --> 06:09.440
|
|
way than using it.
|
|
|
|
06:09.440 --> 06:13.720
|
|
I find this very, thank you both for sharing yourselves and I find it very interesting
|
|
|
|
06:13.720 --> 06:19.760
|
|
that both of you focus on digital sovereignty, has this always been our, has this just in
|
|
|
|
06:19.760 --> 06:25.160
|
|
the recent debates changed also your perspective on Free Software because sometimes we interact
|
|
|
|
06:25.160 --> 06:32.040
|
|
with society and this also changes our perspective so I'm wondering did this interaction also
|
|
|
|
06:32.040 --> 06:38.520
|
|
give something back to you and help or enhanced you a few on Free Software there?
|
|
|
|
06:38.520 --> 06:45.240
|
|
Well, at least I can say that my view, it has changed a little bit over the years, I
|
|
|
|
06:45.240 --> 06:52.040
|
|
mean digital sovereignty, yes, it has always been an important aspect but the importance
|
|
|
|
06:52.040 --> 07:00.600
|
|
it has grown during the recent years, well in general if you look around what's happening
|
|
|
|
07:00.600 --> 07:08.280
|
|
happening in the world around us, I think it's very important for both individuals, organizations
|
|
|
|
07:08.280 --> 07:13.960
|
|
and also entire administrations to have digital sovereignty.
|
|
|
|
07:13.960 --> 07:17.480
|
|
Absolutely, absolutely, Johannes, you want to add?
|
|
|
|
07:17.480 --> 07:24.520
|
|
Yeah, looking back, so maybe 20 years ago I didn't have those words but it was the idea
|
|
|
|
07:24.520 --> 07:29.880
|
|
of digital sovereignty of course, back at the time and I think during the last years,
|
|
|
|
07:29.880 --> 07:38.600
|
|
especially the last maybe two or three or maybe six years, this became stronger and I'm having
|
|
|
|
07:38.600 --> 07:46.680
|
|
the feeling that also, yeah, throughout our society, across our society, there's a new
|
|
|
|
07:46.680 --> 07:52.280
|
|
sensitivity for this topic and many people who didn't know or you could have talked to them
|
|
|
|
07:52.280 --> 07:56.520
|
|
about digital sovereignty, they wouldn't have understood what this is about and for sure,
|
|
|
|
07:56.600 --> 07:59.800
|
|
that wouldn't have said this is something really really important for our society and I think
|
|
|
|
07:59.800 --> 08:08.680
|
|
this is slowly changing now, yes, and this is good. Absolutely, I'm hooked, I'm hooked on a story
|
|
|
|
08:08.680 --> 08:16.280
|
|
there, so we all see that digital sovereignty for society has become more important over the years,
|
|
|
|
08:16.280 --> 08:23.800
|
|
right? And we are working on this obviously with public money, public code, Johannes, you will say
|
|
|
|
08:23.880 --> 08:30.200
|
|
something about that in a few minutes, but before we get started with the whole discussion,
|
|
|
|
08:30.200 --> 08:36.440
|
|
if you are from NIIS, a nonprofit that was working for several countries and regions to develop
|
|
|
|
08:36.440 --> 08:42.840
|
|
digital infrastructure for public administration, you obviously also see digital sovereignty as an
|
|
|
|
08:42.840 --> 08:49.800
|
|
important topic. Can you tell us a bit more on how NIIS is working on this topic and how you as an
|
|
|
|
08:49.800 --> 08:59.000
|
|
organization want to ensure digital sovereignty for Europe? Yeah, absolutely, so NIIS is a non-profit
|
|
|
|
08:59.000 --> 09:06.440
|
|
association which mission is to develop digital government solutions to its members and currently
|
|
|
|
09:06.440 --> 09:14.440
|
|
we have eight members all in all European, well, seven of them European and then we have a
|
|
|
|
09:14.520 --> 09:23.080
|
|
date back from from Canada and yeah, we develop digital government solutions that are
|
|
|
|
09:23.080 --> 09:32.440
|
|
published as open source based on our members needs and requirements, so basically the idea is
|
|
|
|
09:32.440 --> 09:42.760
|
|
is joint development, the members they all contribute to the development by paying annual members
|
|
|
|
09:43.720 --> 09:51.480
|
|
and then NIIS uses that money to develop different digital government solutions based on the
|
|
|
|
09:51.480 --> 10:00.040
|
|
requirements coming from our members, so basically instead of developing these solutions individually
|
|
|
|
10:00.040 --> 10:08.840
|
|
and managing all the aspects related to the development individually, NIIS is handling the development
|
|
|
|
10:08.840 --> 10:15.480
|
|
for all our members and of course it makes it a lot more efficient when it's when it's done like
|
|
|
|
10:15.480 --> 10:22.200
|
|
that because if everyone needs to handle all the different aspects separately, then they end up
|
|
|
|
10:22.200 --> 10:28.680
|
|
doing the same thing multiple times and it creates a lot of overhead, so we kind of try to
|
|
|
|
10:28.680 --> 10:37.320
|
|
minimize the overhead which means that we can spend more resources on the actual development and
|
|
|
|
10:37.320 --> 10:45.160
|
|
besides concrete software development, we also facilitate the collaboration between our member
|
|
|
|
10:45.160 --> 10:52.040
|
|
organizations, so even it's the kind of the development aspect, it's the biggest thing that we do
|
|
|
|
10:52.680 --> 10:59.080
|
|
but we do many other things as well, including facilitating collaboration between our members.
|
|
|
|
10:59.960 --> 11:06.360
|
|
How did this all start? So it's basically all the Nordic, not all the Nordic countries, but who else
|
|
|
|
11:06.360 --> 11:14.440
|
|
was part of NIIS and how did you all come together because they have different point of use and they
|
|
|
|
11:14.440 --> 11:18.440
|
|
obviously also have different interests sometimes, how does this work?
|
|
|
|
11:20.840 --> 11:29.480
|
|
Yeah, so NIIS was originally established in 2017 by the governments of Estonia and Finland
|
|
|
|
11:30.120 --> 11:40.360
|
|
and the story behind NIIS, it actually already started in 2013, back then the Estonian and Finnish prime
|
|
|
|
11:40.360 --> 11:48.280
|
|
ministers met and the Estonian prime minister handed over the source code of extra data exchange
|
|
|
|
11:48.280 --> 11:56.920
|
|
layer to the Finnish prime minister and then in 2014 Finland kicked off a very big digitization
|
|
|
|
11:57.720 --> 12:05.720
|
|
and one of the goals of the project was to use X-Road to implement a national data exchange
|
|
|
|
12:05.720 --> 12:13.800
|
|
layering in Finland and originally the aim was that Finland implements X-Roads
|
|
|
|
12:13.800 --> 12:21.480
|
|
starts using it no additional development required, however things didn't go exactly like that and
|
|
|
|
12:21.480 --> 12:30.440
|
|
eventually Finland needed to start develop X-Road and back then Estonia was also developing
|
|
|
|
12:30.440 --> 12:37.720
|
|
X-Road at the same time but from the beginning it was clear that Finland and Estonia they wanted
|
|
|
|
12:37.720 --> 12:45.160
|
|
to develop the same piece of software together and not to have Estonian work and Finnish work
|
|
|
|
12:45.640 --> 12:54.840
|
|
and initially the joint development was done by coordinating the daily development activities
|
|
|
|
12:54.840 --> 13:01.480
|
|
by the public authorities of both countries who were responsible for running them but pretty soon
|
|
|
|
13:02.120 --> 13:11.480
|
|
it came here that it wasn't the best possible way of doing things which is why the idea of the
|
|
|
|
13:11.480 --> 13:23.480
|
|
joint organization was born and yeah then things evolved and yeah in 2017 NIIS was established
|
|
|
|
13:23.480 --> 13:32.440
|
|
and the following year the X-Road development activities were hand-dropper to NIIS from Estonia
|
|
|
|
13:32.440 --> 13:40.920
|
|
and Finland so but even it everything kind of started around X-Road from the beginning the idea
|
|
|
|
13:40.920 --> 13:50.680
|
|
of NIIS was wider joint organization for digital collaboration not just for for X-Road development
|
|
|
|
13:51.400 --> 13:58.840
|
|
but but we started with that in practice and then during the following years we got new members
|
|
|
|
13:59.560 --> 14:07.560
|
|
some of them are countries and some of them are states of federal countries or also autonomous regions
|
|
|
|
14:07.640 --> 14:12.680
|
|
but the current members are Estonia, Finland, Iceland,
|
|
|
|
14:12.680 --> 14:20.200
|
|
Ukraine, Schleswig-Holstein, Québec, the Faroe Islands, the Government of Åland. So all in all
|
|
|
|
14:20.200 --> 14:29.480
|
|
we have today eight members and we are not a closed organization so we are also actively looking
|
|
|
|
14:29.480 --> 14:36.360
|
|
for or new member organizations to join especially from Europe and you don't need to be a
|
|
|
|
14:36.360 --> 14:45.000
|
|
Nordic country as I just here as well right yeah yeah that's not a requirement but yeah it
|
|
|
|
14:46.120 --> 14:53.560
|
|
originally yes NIIS was originated by by the Nordic countries but but today yeah you don't
|
|
|
|
14:53.560 --> 14:59.240
|
|
need to be a Nordic country in order to be a member just so that we get the word out there yeah
|
|
|
|
14:59.240 --> 15:05.640
|
|
that that was a very good clarification also as in Germany only the most Nordic states joints
|
|
|
|
15:06.120 --> 15:18.840
|
|
X-Road so far but maybe that can also spread basically right below Denmark so almost Nordic almost
|
|
|
|
15:21.000 --> 15:29.320
|
|
okay you already mentioned X-Road what is X-Road can you give us a very very brief overview and yeah
|
|
|
|
15:29.400 --> 15:37.160
|
|
just let us let our listeners gain on the secret here yeah so X-Road is an open source solution for
|
|
|
|
15:37.160 --> 15:43.960
|
|
secure data exchange between organizations if it's an open source solution licensed under the MIT
|
|
|
|
15:43.960 --> 15:51.480
|
|
license it's one of the most deployed digital public infrastructure components around the world
|
|
|
|
15:51.960 --> 15:58.600
|
|
and it's also digital public could verify it by the digital public could alliance originally
|
|
|
|
15:58.600 --> 16:06.760
|
|
it was developed in Estonia already over 25 years ago but today there are at least 30 countries
|
|
|
|
16:06.760 --> 16:15.640
|
|
around the world using it the most typical way to use it is as a national data exchange solution
|
|
|
|
16:15.640 --> 16:23.160
|
|
for example that's how it used in Estonia and and in Finland but it can also be used for for
|
|
|
|
16:23.240 --> 16:31.640
|
|
other kind of use cases so that's a very short recap of what X-Road is and what it does thank you
|
|
|
|
16:31.640 --> 16:40.280
|
|
very much for the introduction Johannes before we dive into the challenges that are ahead of all
|
|
|
|
16:40.280 --> 16:48.360
|
|
for all of us can you say can you briefly tell us also in that more general kind of you how
|
|
|
|
16:48.360 --> 16:55.320
|
|
is "Public Money? Public Code!" currently doing what's the status there and where are we on a European
|
|
|
|
16:55.320 --> 17:01.720
|
|
level yeah sure but let me first say I think so it's it's really great to talk about X-Road and
|
|
|
|
17:01.720 --> 17:07.560
|
|
needs today and I think it's in many ways a good example for how "Public Money? Public Code!" is
|
|
|
|
17:07.560 --> 17:13.400
|
|
meant to work and it can work really really well especially with the aspect of corporation across
|
|
|
|
17:13.400 --> 17:19.720
|
|
borders the corporation across states and this is yeah I think really great example for
|
|
|
|
17:20.600 --> 17:25.800
|
|
"Public Money? Public Code!" in practice yeah talking about "Public Money? Public Code!" this initiative
|
|
|
|
17:25.800 --> 17:31.960
|
|
started or we as Free Software Foundation Europe started it around I think eight years ago or maybe
|
|
|
|
17:31.960 --> 17:37.640
|
|
already nine years ago with a very simple demand software paid by the paid for by the public should
|
|
|
|
17:37.800 --> 17:44.040
|
|
be available to the public as Free Software so if it's public money then it should be public code
|
|
|
|
17:44.040 --> 17:50.760
|
|
and this is still our call message so what's the situation today the good news first across Europe
|
|
|
|
17:50.760 --> 17:56.360
|
|
we see more awareness than a few years ago we talked about this there's a change in dual geopolitical
|
|
|
|
17:56.360 --> 18:02.200
|
|
situation it's one of the reasons for that digital sovereignty interoperability and also reducing
|
|
|
|
18:02.200 --> 18:08.440
|
|
vandalogue in are now widely discussed I think also lots of decision makers understand why this
|
|
|
|
18:08.440 --> 18:14.280
|
|
is important for our societies and there are also more and more practical initiatives to turn
|
|
|
|
18:14.280 --> 18:22.280
|
|
this into action we currently see a strong movement away from proprietary software especially from
|
|
|
|
18:22.280 --> 18:28.520
|
|
the United States for example in France where currently lots of tools are replaced and also windows
|
|
|
|
18:28.520 --> 18:33.320
|
|
as being replaced by Linux for example in Switzerland there are no recent plays that demand the release
|
|
|
|
18:33.320 --> 18:39.320
|
|
of newly newly developed software to be released as Free Software in Denmark and dependency on US
|
|
|
|
18:39.320 --> 18:44.440
|
|
software companies proprietary US software companies has become a national security threat in the
|
|
|
|
18:44.440 --> 18:51.640
|
|
course of the debate around US the United States trying to take over Greenland especially in Denmark
|
|
|
|
18:51.640 --> 18:56.120
|
|
regular people on the street suddenly start talking about digital sovereignty and why this is
|
|
|
|
18:56.120 --> 19:02.600
|
|
important it's not just an expert debate any any longer and in Germany one more example and I
|
|
|
|
19:02.600 --> 19:09.080
|
|
could tell you many more of many more examples but in Germany Free Software has become is becoming a
|
|
|
|
19:09.080 --> 19:15.640
|
|
strategic component of the so-called Germany Stack but and now comes the but at the same time free
|
|
|
|
19:15.640 --> 19:21.160
|
|
software has not yet become the default improvement and legislation there's still a long way to go
|
|
|
|
19:21.160 --> 19:26.680
|
|
to often Free Software is treated as an exception or as a nice add-on instead of the normal way
|
|
|
|
19:27.320 --> 19:33.400
|
|
to build public digital infrastructure and recently we have seen a shift in the debate around
|
|
|
|
19:33.400 --> 19:38.360
|
|
digital sovereignty and I think this is remarkable as it's also dangerous for the whole
|
|
|
|
19:38.360 --> 19:42.600
|
|
yeah debate around "Public Money? Public Code!" and Free Software and public administrations
|
|
|
|
19:43.320 --> 19:50.040
|
|
because European industry lobby suggests trying to suggest that states can become digital sovereign
|
|
|
|
19:50.040 --> 19:54.520
|
|
by just switching to European vendors no matter if the software products are proprietary
|
|
|
|
19:55.240 --> 20:00.920
|
|
and I would say this neglects the risk of replacing all dependencies by new ones this time only from
|
|
|
|
20:00.920 --> 20:07.000
|
|
European vendors what if they go bankrupt those European proprietary software vendors what if they
|
|
|
|
20:07.000 --> 20:12.920
|
|
decide to relocate outside Europe what if they are taken over by Chinese or by United States
|
|
|
|
20:12.920 --> 20:17.880
|
|
corporations where does that leave Europe and where does that leave our digital sovereignty
|
|
|
|
20:18.840 --> 20:22.600
|
|
yeah the debate around digital sovereignty definitely helps "Public Money? Public Code!" and
|
|
|
|
20:22.600 --> 20:27.640
|
|
it helps you software for public administrations but we must emphasize that digital sovereignty can
|
|
|
|
20:27.640 --> 20:35.000
|
|
only be reached through Free Software and not by just replacing foreign yeah software products by
|
|
|
|
20:35.000 --> 20:41.960
|
|
European ones and what we need is Free Software first rules so "Public Money? Public Code!" rules
|
|
|
|
20:41.960 --> 20:47.880
|
|
in place we need "Public Money? Public Code!" legislation across Europe reflecting that Free Software
|
|
|
|
20:47.880 --> 20:52.280
|
|
is a cornerstone of our digital infrastructure and the prerequisite for digital sovereignty
|
|
|
|
20:52.920 --> 20:57.560
|
|
and also we need implementation of those rules so once we have it it must be implemented
|
|
|
|
20:58.200 --> 21:02.920
|
|
we as Free Software foundation Europe we push for that we push for Free Software becoming the
|
|
|
|
21:03.640 --> 21:10.520
|
|
standard and the default and public administration and we also try to be watch docs around public
|
|
|
|
21:10.520 --> 21:15.320
|
|
money public code when we see development in the wrong direction you already mentioned quite a
|
|
|
|
21:15.320 --> 21:23.160
|
|
lot of the challenges that are ahead of us or that we are currently facing in regard to public code
|
|
|
|
21:23.160 --> 21:30.680
|
|
and public administrations Patrick can you also from your perspective are those challenges
|
|
|
|
21:30.680 --> 21:39.800
|
|
very similar or are they different what do you think about that yeah I I can definitely recognize
|
|
|
|
21:39.960 --> 21:46.680
|
|
the challenges that that Johannes mentioned so so yeah it's it's pretty easy to agree with them
|
|
|
|
21:47.640 --> 21:55.960
|
|
if I think about what we are doing at me is maybe our challenges they are a little bit different
|
|
|
|
21:55.960 --> 22:05.160
|
|
so so right now or not only right now but but in general one of our goals is to find new
|
|
|
|
22:05.240 --> 22:13.160
|
|
user countries new use cases for for extra than in general these products so that we we could
|
|
|
|
22:13.160 --> 22:20.760
|
|
find new new members for these because of course new organizations and new countries are
|
|
|
|
22:20.760 --> 22:29.960
|
|
dividing the development costs the less it costs for everyone so everyone benefits but in
|
|
|
|
22:29.960 --> 22:41.480
|
|
Europe it's often quite challenging to sell or or market an existing open source solution that
|
|
|
|
22:41.480 --> 22:49.480
|
|
is already widely used like like X-Road so even if it it already has a proven crack record it's
|
|
|
|
22:49.480 --> 22:57.080
|
|
being actively maintained and developed and so on but still many countries are a little bit
|
|
|
|
22:57.160 --> 23:07.720
|
|
hesitant in adopting solutions developed by others so instead of using some existing open source software
|
|
|
|
23:07.720 --> 23:16.600
|
|
quite often they seem to prefer developing their own solutions which is of course it's not the
|
|
|
|
23:16.600 --> 23:23.160
|
|
most efficient way of doing things because in instead of developing something new that you
|
|
|
|
23:23.160 --> 23:30.600
|
|
probably also have to maintain by yourself you would you could use something that already exists
|
|
|
|
23:30.600 --> 23:37.640
|
|
is being developed is being managed it has a community and and so on so one of our biggest
|
|
|
|
23:37.640 --> 23:45.480
|
|
challenges is that kind of an approach to open source so because I found this really interesting
|
|
|
|
23:45.480 --> 23:51.000
|
|
and it points out that what we need also is a culture change in how we think about our
|
|
|
|
23:51.640 --> 23:57.160
|
|
digital infrastructures and about procurement and about how to how to get solutions and this
|
|
|
|
23:58.280 --> 24:05.800
|
|
so right now probably many decision makers many public administrations think of Free Software
|
|
|
|
24:06.520 --> 24:12.680
|
|
as you start doing things from the scratch this can be an option but this is not really how things
|
|
|
|
24:12.680 --> 24:18.520
|
|
should work if there's something a really good product like X-Road out so Free Software is much
|
|
|
|
24:18.520 --> 24:25.960
|
|
more about cooperation about doing things together about contributing back and then yeah everyone
|
|
|
|
24:25.960 --> 24:32.200
|
|
profits from what is being done and this is also part of this culture change that has to reach our
|
|
|
|
24:33.240 --> 24:40.360
|
|
public administrations yeah exactly that's that's very important because still today
|
|
|
|
24:41.240 --> 24:47.160
|
|
sometimes you you can see cases where an organization says that yeah we are we
|
|
|
|
24:48.120 --> 24:54.120
|
|
every time everything that we develop we publish it as open source and it means that they
|
|
|
|
24:54.120 --> 25:00.760
|
|
publish the code in GitHub using some open source license but then that's it there's no
|
|
|
|
25:00.760 --> 25:08.520
|
|
community there's no way to contribute back and there's no visibility to the back lock road map
|
|
|
|
25:08.840 --> 25:14.840
|
|
or anything like that so basically yes the code is licensed under the open source license but
|
|
|
|
25:14.840 --> 25:19.560
|
|
still if you think about the whole development model it's not really open source
|
|
|
|
25:21.320 --> 25:27.160
|
|
absolutely right so if also if we talk about procurement and this is where a lot of work has to
|
|
|
|
25:27.160 --> 25:35.000
|
|
be done to get to a sustainable digital infrastructure based on Free Software there are ways of
|
|
|
|
25:35.000 --> 25:40.280
|
|
going in that direction that you mentioned so you can you can use procurement criteria that
|
|
|
|
25:40.280 --> 25:45.320
|
|
helps you finding the best solutions that are already out there instead of reinventing the
|
|
|
|
25:45.320 --> 25:51.720
|
|
wheel and starting from scratch again and again or ending up with some with some solution that
|
|
|
|
25:51.720 --> 25:59.400
|
|
doesn't have a community around it or maybe is developed by yeah by just a single vendor and you
|
|
|
|
25:59.480 --> 26:04.840
|
|
also end up in new dependencies I like this approach or this thought about the cultural change
|
|
|
|
26:05.720 --> 26:12.200
|
|
and I find this very intriguing on the one hand I think a lot of administrations or public
|
|
|
|
26:12.200 --> 26:18.360
|
|
administrations see this need they are like we need a community we can't do everything on our own
|
|
|
|
26:18.360 --> 26:24.120
|
|
that's why we can't use Free Software on the other hand all of them argue oh this software this
|
|
|
|
26:24.120 --> 26:31.560
|
|
is not it's not tailored for my needs and I need a tailored software so I find this very interesting
|
|
|
|
26:31.560 --> 26:41.640
|
|
because public administrations are quite a curious living being sometimes even so they are not
|
|
|
|
26:41.640 --> 26:49.400
|
|
a person in itself but they have a certain culture and a certain attitude they bring along
|
|
|
|
26:50.360 --> 26:55.240
|
|
but how do you push for wider adoption of Free Software and public administration
|
|
|
|
26:56.120 --> 27:02.920
|
|
and a general approach and also to get more countries to collaborate with each other not
|
|
|
|
27:03.960 --> 27:08.840
|
|
specifically only talking about needs now but also in a general point of view how do we get
|
|
|
|
27:10.520 --> 27:17.240
|
|
this collaboration this community starting here and public administrations using Free Software
|
|
|
|
27:17.720 --> 27:26.760
|
|
yeah very broad question yeah that's yeah very very broad question and yeah very very challenging one
|
|
|
|
27:27.320 --> 27:35.240
|
|
but yeah I guess there is no simple solution to that or or single solution to that but at least one
|
|
|
|
27:35.240 --> 27:43.160
|
|
aspect is that maybe we should try to communicate the benefits of three software better and what's
|
|
|
|
27:43.160 --> 27:50.600
|
|
the difference compared to commercial software what what do the organizations and countries gain
|
|
|
|
27:50.600 --> 27:59.320
|
|
by switching from switching to the Free Software because eventually everyone wants to have
|
|
|
|
27:59.880 --> 28:10.440
|
|
better services and spend less money so yeah we should try to demonstrate how that can be achieved
|
|
|
|
28:11.160 --> 28:17.160
|
|
yeah but at the same time it's I think it's also important to communicate that even if we talk
|
|
|
|
28:17.160 --> 28:24.920
|
|
about Free Software of course it's it's not completely free because someone still needs to run it
|
|
|
|
28:24.920 --> 28:33.320
|
|
set it up operate it and so on so of course it costs sometimes it may cost less while other times
|
|
|
|
28:33.320 --> 28:39.560
|
|
it the price might be the same but still you get the freedom you get the digital
|
|
|
|
28:39.560 --> 28:48.280
|
|
sovereignty so even if the price would be the same you still get more more value to it and I think
|
|
|
|
28:48.280 --> 28:58.200
|
|
these are things that probably not not all parties see it and it it might help the cause to
|
|
|
|
28:58.200 --> 29:05.640
|
|
communicate more about this point of view yeah absolutely and this is I think what we do at the
|
|
|
|
29:05.720 --> 29:11.320
|
|
Free Software Foundation Europe so pushing for "Public Money? Public Code!" we work on the political
|
|
|
|
29:11.320 --> 29:17.560
|
|
and on the public framework to push for wider adoption so as I said we want to have Free Software
|
|
|
|
29:17.560 --> 29:22.680
|
|
and public administration so of course we we have good arguments we try to carry them out we try
|
|
|
|
29:22.680 --> 29:29.000
|
|
to convince decision makers and politicians to get to to come up with with Free Software first
|
|
|
|
29:29.640 --> 29:35.960
|
|
approaches in policies for example on the European level there's a procurement reform going on
|
|
|
|
29:35.960 --> 29:41.480
|
|
and for the first time there will be something like strategic procurement procurement in future
|
|
|
|
29:41.480 --> 29:49.080
|
|
after this reform will allow to have strategic criteria not only the lowest bit or the lowest
|
|
|
|
29:49.080 --> 29:55.640
|
|
price as criterion and we argue that yeah the digital sovereignty through Free Software should be
|
|
|
|
29:55.720 --> 30:01.560
|
|
one criterion that should be possible and that should definitely be in there and should enable
|
|
|
|
30:01.560 --> 30:07.640
|
|
procurement offices in future to opt for Free Software solutions even if there's a same price or if
|
|
|
|
30:07.640 --> 30:15.880
|
|
there are more expensive than proprietary solutions yeah so we tried then also if we have a regulation
|
|
|
|
30:15.880 --> 30:21.000
|
|
like this in place and laws like this in place we try to push for implementation yeah and of course
|
|
|
|
30:21.000 --> 30:26.680
|
|
it really really helps us to have best practices at hand so it's really convincing for our
|
|
|
|
30:26.680 --> 30:33.640
|
|
politicians if we can tell of examples like X-Road and show them how "Public Money? Public Code!" how
|
|
|
|
30:33.640 --> 30:39.080
|
|
Free Software and public administrations works and how it can work at scale so not not just side
|
|
|
|
30:39.080 --> 30:45.800
|
|
projects but and I think X-Road really shows that how it can work at scale in practice across
|
|
|
|
30:45.800 --> 30:51.480
|
|
several countries with a lot of yeah really good success yeah at the same time what we need is
|
|
|
|
30:51.480 --> 30:58.120
|
|
long-term secure funding so at the at the moment this is not the case there's no there is not
|
|
|
|
30:58.120 --> 31:04.520
|
|
not enough money for Free Software if you look at the budgets across Europe it has to be a standard
|
|
|
|
31:04.520 --> 31:10.760
|
|
that we finance our digital infrastructure and the digital sovereignty of our digital infrastructure
|
|
|
|
31:11.320 --> 31:19.480
|
|
Free Software with enough money in the long run so to get a stable foundation it's absolutely what we
|
|
|
|
31:19.480 --> 31:26.840
|
|
need and yeah at the same time if we look at what we have been spending or if what we are still
|
|
|
|
31:26.840 --> 31:33.960
|
|
spending today on proprietary licenses these are billions every year and I think it should absolutely
|
|
|
|
31:33.960 --> 31:39.400
|
|
be possible to cut that and move some and move even larger parts of that money to
|
|
|
|
31:39.960 --> 31:44.520
|
|
yeah sustaining Free Software for public administration what the harness was just referring to was that
|
|
|
|
31:46.120 --> 31:53.880
|
|
it was published in Germany how much is spent by the federal administration so not all
|
|
|
|
31:53.880 --> 31:59.240
|
|
administration because Germany is Germany's federal country so we have Schleswig-Holstein
|
|
|
|
31:59.240 --> 32:04.360
|
|
as Bundesland obviously but we also have like very small money supealities who all maintain
|
|
|
|
32:04.440 --> 32:11.720
|
|
their own infrastructure but the federal administration they just published how much they spent on
|
|
|
|
32:11.720 --> 32:19.400
|
|
Microsoft licenses and in general on software licenses as well which was a lot of money you
|
|
|
|
32:19.400 --> 32:25.800
|
|
haven't seen you have the number I think something something around 500 million just for
|
|
|
|
32:26.600 --> 32:33.240
|
|
Microsoft licenses yeah not reflecting the debates around digital sovereignty
|
|
|
|
32:33.960 --> 32:37.960
|
|
and this is definitely something that has to change but it's not only the case in Germany of course
|
|
|
|
32:37.960 --> 32:44.680
|
|
we see the same across Europe so a lot of money is being spent on proprietary software on not only
|
|
|
|
32:44.680 --> 32:52.440
|
|
Microsoft products also other proprietary vendors database or for example and there's a lot of money
|
|
|
|
32:52.440 --> 32:59.080
|
|
in that market if we really take digital sovereignty seriously if we really take it seriously that we as
|
|
|
|
32:59.080 --> 33:04.920
|
|
Europe must take control of our own digital infrastructure then we should try to put this money
|
|
|
|
33:05.880 --> 33:12.520
|
|
into Free Software into "Public Money? Public Code!" I like that I take this as a closing word because
|
|
|
|
33:12.520 --> 33:20.840
|
|
it's a very nice thing very positive how can our listeners help here how can they support how can
|
|
|
|
33:20.840 --> 33:26.920
|
|
they support X-Road how can they support knees how yeah how can they jump in the Terry
|
|
|
|
33:28.280 --> 33:34.600
|
|
well this applies to X-Road knees and and all the all the open source projects out there so the
|
|
|
|
33:34.600 --> 33:43.080
|
|
best way to support any open source project is to contribute what else and I want to highlight that
|
|
|
|
33:43.080 --> 33:50.120
|
|
contributing doesn't necessarily mean code contribution so in order to contribute you don't
|
|
|
|
33:50.120 --> 33:56.440
|
|
necessarily have to be a developer there are also a lot of other things that you can do for X-Road or
|
|
|
|
33:56.440 --> 34:06.120
|
|
other open source projects related to documentation or example that doesn't require coding skills so
|
|
|
|
34:06.200 --> 34:14.200
|
|
if you want to get involved with X-Road or any other open source projects then join the community
|
|
|
|
34:14.200 --> 34:21.320
|
|
familiarize with yourself with the project and then look for things that you're
|
|
|
|
34:21.320 --> 34:28.200
|
|
interested in and then contact the project and tell them that you would be willing to
|
|
|
|
34:28.200 --> 34:34.360
|
|
contribute and it doesn't have to be code and I'm pretty sure that all the all the project
|
|
|
|
34:34.840 --> 34:39.560
|
|
maintainers they are were very happy to receive this kind of request at least at
|
|
|
|
34:39.560 --> 34:45.800
|
|
knees we are very happy when when someone wants to join the community and especially when they
|
|
|
|
34:45.800 --> 34:52.440
|
|
want to contribute perfect thank you so much oh can I just add one thing there actually three
|
|
|
|
34:52.440 --> 34:57.720
|
|
things that I would like our our listeners to do yeah so and also thank you thank you very much
|
|
|
|
34:57.720 --> 35:02.840
|
|
Peter yeah I think what you said is absolutely important and this this kind of contributions are
|
|
|
|
35:02.840 --> 35:10.680
|
|
really really helpful from from my perspective I would I would really appreciate if our listeners if
|
|
|
|
35:10.680 --> 35:17.560
|
|
all of you could be very very aware of the debates of around digital sovereignty and try to
|
|
|
|
35:17.560 --> 35:24.120
|
|
notice when this debate is going into that buy-European direction and jump in and speak in and tell
|
|
|
|
35:24.120 --> 35:28.760
|
|
the ones that say okay it's enough that we buy European products no matter if they're proprietary
|
|
|
|
35:28.840 --> 35:34.680
|
|
tell them no it has to be Free Software only that software makes us digital sovereign digitally
|
|
|
|
35:34.680 --> 35:40.520
|
|
sovereign in the end so jump in because I think this is this is important at the moment the other
|
|
|
|
35:40.520 --> 35:47.240
|
|
two things are really simple so you could go to public code dot you that's our campaign work website
|
|
|
|
35:47.240 --> 35:51.960
|
|
of "Public Money? Public Code!" so public code dot you I think it's also in the show notes and sign
|
|
|
|
35:51.960 --> 35:58.200
|
|
our open letter that we have there so help us to get over 40,000 signatories which we are close
|
|
|
|
35:58.360 --> 36:05.080
|
|
to at the moment and the last thing is we as Free Software Foundation Europe we really rely on donations
|
|
|
|
36:05.080 --> 36:11.480
|
|
we really rely on the help of our supporters so please go to fsfe.org slash donate and become a
|
|
|
|
36:11.480 --> 36:17.480
|
|
supporter of the Free Software Foundation Europe so support our work it's what we rely on this is our
|
|
|
|
36:17.480 --> 36:22.680
|
|
backbone backbone of our work and only if we have enough supporters we can continue continue doing
|
|
|
|
36:22.760 --> 36:27.720
|
|
this kind of work so please help us with that becoming support now you're taking away my closing
|
|
|
|
36:28.600 --> 36:38.360
|
|
now I have to think of anyone no but it's absolutely true we are a charity that depend on your support so
|
|
|
|
36:39.480 --> 36:46.200
|
|
if you like our work and if you want us to continue pushing for "Public Money? Public Code!"
|
|
|
|
36:47.000 --> 36:54.040
|
|
the meaning Free Software in public administrations please support us we do this on a European level
|
|
|
|
36:54.040 --> 37:01.720
|
|
as Johannes has already mentioned be advocate for Free Software long term funding and we can only do this
|
|
|
|
37:02.280 --> 37:08.920
|
|
if we have enough support by our dear dear listeners and all the others if you cannot support us
|
|
|
|
37:09.000 --> 37:16.920
|
|
financially you can of course join extra in the community make yourself familiar with the project first
|
|
|
|
37:16.920 --> 37:25.800
|
|
don't just drop LLM generated documentation or code request at least review them before
|
|
|
|
37:27.240 --> 37:32.280
|
|
there are loads of ways to get active and yeah thank you so much for your support there
|
|
|
|
37:32.280 --> 37:38.040
|
|
and to the two of you thank you so much for being here thank you so much for taking the time
|
|
|
|
37:38.040 --> 37:44.520
|
|
walking me through all of this quite a lot we have touched up on today very happy that we had to
|
|
|
|
37:44.520 --> 37:49.960
|
|
talk about public code and public administrations and a lot of new insights for me thank you so much
|
|
|
|
37:50.760 --> 37:56.600
|
|
thank you Bonnie thank you Peter thank you for having me it was a very interesting conversation
|
|
|
|
37:56.600 --> 38:01.880
|
|
thank you it was a pleasure to have both of you here thank you so much bye bye
|
|
|
|
38:02.120 --> 38:10.520
|
|
this was the software freedom podcast if you like this episode please recommend it to your friends
|
|
|
|
38:10.520 --> 38:16.760
|
|
and rate it they tuned for more inspiring conversations that explored the importance of software
|
|
|
|
38:16.760 --> 38:22.840
|
|
freedom and its impact on our digital lives this podcast is presented to you by the Free Software
|
|
|
|
38:22.840 --> 38:28.840
|
|
Foundation Europe we are a charity that works on promoting software freedom if you like our work
|
|
|
|
38:28.840 --> 38:35.960
|
|
please consider supporting us for the nation you find more information under fsfe.org/donate
|
|
|
|
38:35.960 --> 38:46.120
|
|
thank you so much bye bye
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
</pre>
|
|
|
|
<p><a href="/news/podcast/2026/episode-51.html">Back to the episode SFP#51</a></p>
|
|
|
|
</body>
|
|
<sidebar promo="our-work">
|
|
|
|
</sidebar>
|
|
|
|
<translator/>
|
|
</html>
|
|
|