1784 lines
46 KiB
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1784 lines
46 KiB
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<title>Transcript SFP#46</title>
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<h1>SFP#46: Policy and EU: Can the DMA help Free Software developers working with Android?</h1>
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<p><a href="/news/podcast/2026/episode-46.html">Back to the episode SFP#46</a></p>
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<pre class="transcript">
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<div class="content-centered"><h1 class="post-title"><a>SFP#46: Policy and EU: Can the DMA help Free Software developers working with Android?</a></h1>
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WEBVTT
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00:00.000 --> 00:16.600
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Hello and welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast.
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This podcast is brought to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe.
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We are a charity that empowers users to control technology and I'm Bonnie Mehring.
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Today I'm here with Dr. Lucas Lasota from...
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I'm trying to pronounce the correct, okay?
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The Chest Transition Center of the Martin Luther University of Halle, Wittenberg.
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Lucas is also in part-time working for the free Software Foundation Europe.
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So we are also co-workers.
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Yeah, thank you so much Lucas for making it.
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Thank you so much for being here and yeah, taking the time at Foster.
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00:50.600 --> 00:53.000
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It's a great pleasure to be here and I thank you very much, Bonnie.
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It has been a pleasure here.
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All right, how are you and how has Foster been so far?
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00:58.600 --> 01:05.000
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Well, I think you can guess from my voice that Foster is always like that.
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01:05.000 --> 01:12.400
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Very intensive, almost overwhelming, but very inspiring and very energizing.
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01:12.400 --> 01:18.400
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And it gives us this energy to keep going for software freedom for the entire year.
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01:18.400 --> 01:23.600
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I can imagine, I can imagine, it gives you a bit of a blast, but it's also like really exhausting at the same time.
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01:23.600 --> 01:27.000
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I have to take some days after Foster for sure.
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01:27.000 --> 01:31.200
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Well, I'll highlight so far like anything that you think, oh, this was really inspiring.
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01:31.200 --> 01:35.200
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This is the thing that will give me some energy boost for the next weeks.
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01:35.200 --> 01:42.800
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So, as you know, at the university and at FSFE, I mainly work with policy and legal issues.
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01:43.000 --> 01:48.400
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And during the whole year, these issues are very emotionally demanding, if you will,
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because you are always dealing with problems.
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01:51.400 --> 01:59.000
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Well, if people don't have problems, then we don't need the law and regulation on relation to problems.
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01:59.000 --> 02:05.600
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And during the entire year, you get accustomed to the challenge all the time.
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02:05.600 --> 02:11.400
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Now we are involved with platform regulation, Apple, Google, Microsoft.
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There's a lot of challenges for free and open source software.
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02:14.200 --> 02:17.000
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But here in Foster, you see the power of the community.
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And you see this thousand of developers.
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And you see their engagement, you see their excitement to produce alternatives
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to allow people to control technology, you know, to put forward software freedom.
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02:29.600 --> 02:36.600
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So I think my highlight to Foster is this energy boost that helps me keeping with my legal and policy work for the rest of the year.
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I can't imagine, I can't imagine.
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If so many people come together, there's like this energy that is accelerating between all of them.
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And it's like, yeah, it's amazing.
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I think for anyone based in Europe, even outside Europe,
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if you have the privilege and to visit Foster, I think even from anthropological point of view,
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I think it is a very, yeah, very rewarding experience.
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03:02.000 --> 03:06.600
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Again, imagine, but today, even so I would love to continue this conversation.
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We won't be talking about Foster, but we will be talking about the question,
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can the Digital Markets Act help to protect Free Software developers working with the Android Open Source project in short AOSP?
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Right?
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Yes. It's a very difficult question and happy to discuss with you today.
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I'm also happy and I will, I'm really looking forward to find out what you think about it.
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Before we dive into the topic, can you vary briefly outline your connection to the Digital Markets Act and how you came in contact with this?
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Yes. So a primer about this, why we're talking so much about this law.
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And if anyone goes to FSFE.org and go to the search function and put Digital Markets Act,
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you're going to see a lot of this stuff being published on this.
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03:56.000 --> 04:09.600
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Because we do think this is a very important regulation that can push to the adoption of free and open source software in critical aspects of our mobile devices,
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especially in relation to alternative app stores, browsers, search engines, operating systems.
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And because the main goal of this law, and this is an European Union law,
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that came into force in 2024, is to promote more competition in digital markets.
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That's why Digital Markets Act, you know.
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And the situation with the Drupal Apple slash Google over mobile ecosystems has been so intense and so entrenched that the regulators in Europe said
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we need to do something about it, we need to inject more competition in their markets and we need desperately for alternatives.
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04:47.000 --> 04:53.600
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And look, Bonnie, yesterday I was in a very nice talk from our colleague who is listening to this podcast.
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I highly suggest going to the Boston website and search for Gabriel Ku Wei Bin.
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04:58.600 --> 05:02.600
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And he gave a primer on the legal aspects of free and open source software.
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05:02.600 --> 05:10.000
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And he also gave us a historical, very short historical development of the movement from the legal perspective.
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05:10.000 --> 05:17.000
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And copyright establishes a monopoly when someone creates a creative work.
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So think about a book, think about software, a music.
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The creator has a monopoly over that work.
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Sometimes it's good, you know, because you wanted to have control about the work that you have.
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But sometimes this monopoly can be overstated, you know.
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And the main core of the Free Software movement was to disintermediate this monopolies.
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Then that's why we created a copy left.
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So the Free Software licenses is a medium to disintermediated monopoly over software.
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And we have been doing this for 40 years, right?
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And therefore this law that came in 2024 is just a next step on this fight.
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It's just a next step on this type of work.
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We are not concerning with copyright only, but we are concerning now with platform regulation.
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We are concerned about digital markets, right?
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And therefore this law is a trench where the FSFE and anyone that cares about Free Software should be involved.
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Because we really want to allow people to control technology, to control our mobile devices.
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And sometimes it's not possible without regulation because the situation becomes so disadvantages for Free Software developers,
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even for end user customers, not customers, I'm sorry, end users, right?
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Thank you.
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That without regulation we cannot do anything more about it, you know.
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Was this what you were thinking like when you were at the DMA, you were like,
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oh, this will be an next step to help end users to be more empowered.
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And that monopolies are not that much in the, in the power of controlling everything.
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Was this what you were thinking like when you read it?
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Yeah, that's a very good summary, yes.
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How did you feel about this?
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Were you like really inspired or were you like, I hope that this works out?
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Well, that's a very good question.
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I mean, when I jump out the bed every day, I think I have to think, well, this will go on our workout.
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Well, I hope it will work out.
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But this brings me to the question because we already touched a bit on the monopoly side.
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So it's now over 20 years ago that Google acquired the Android open source project, right?
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And your work of the University of Halle-Wittenberg, you did also study on Google
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and especially the policy shift in regard to AOSP.
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So in the study, you wrote the AOSP has served as a baseline not only for diverse commercial versions
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of Android-based operating systems, but also for alternative, non-profit community-driven versions of operating systems.
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Can you walk me through what happened like before Google took this policy shift in 2025
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and yeah, how Google has seen or how Google's role as a gatekeeper to be precise?
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Yeah, so just about some organizational aspects about this study before we move forward,
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this study has not been published yet.
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So we submitted this study to a publication in a legal journal.
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So this study has not been published.
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What we have is a working version that we already discussed in a conference.
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And this version that you have access is an internal one that we shared on this conference.
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And I'm happy to discuss this working version that you have.
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But this is not the official version that will be published yet,
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because we are waiting for the feedback of the peer review that we submitted.
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But I would like you to provide just a context on this study and why this is important work that we have been doing.
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Because in the last three years, my research work and also my work at the FSFE has been dealing with Apple.
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Apple has taken a very aggressive approach against this law,
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because this law tries to open up an infrastructure from Apple
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and to allow more competition on App stores, browsers,
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allowing interoperability for Free Software,
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not only for software, but Apple is questioning this whole law
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and saying that this law is in constitutional law,
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you know, it's not proportional.
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But sometimes we forget that there are other companies that this law applies to.
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And one of these companies are Google and other companies are Microsoft, Amazon,
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looking at their others.
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But the problem with Google is that how Google relates to this law is a little bit more nuanced than Apple.
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Apple has a very strong adversarial position against this law.
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But Google, since, as you already mentioned, in the beginning of this podcast,
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Google is responsible for the Android open source project.
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And Android open source project is a fundamental part of the Android operating system.
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And the Android operating system is the most popular and the most used operating system in the world, you know, by far, you know.
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And...
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You mean like on smartphone?
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Yeah.
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In mobile devices, right?
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So comes Android in the first place, then iOS in the second place and together, together,
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they have more than 99% of the entire market of mobile operating systems.
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We, of course, know we are from the Free Software community.
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We know that there are many others, alternatives, operating systems,
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that the Android base are not Android boys, they're the Linux phones, several of them.
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You know, but their part on the market are very thin, you know,
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that's less than 1%, unfortunately.
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And we want to change that.
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But today's topic is about Android.
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Perhaps we can do a podcast in the future about Linux phones.
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We did one. We did one in the past.
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I will link it on the show notes.
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Oh, that's a great, yeah.
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But we did one in the past.
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That's super cool.
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But...
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And Android, as you said, right?
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I would like to...
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Well, I'm old enough to remember 2007 the expectations we had.
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And Android, when Android came into the market, it was a blast, I remember.
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Everyone would like to have an Android phone.
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Because before that we were having kind of smartphones,
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but the smartphones, they were very limited in their capacity
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because they pre-installed apps just from the manufacturer.
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And Android came with this promise, you know, with this potential
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that you could install any software that you would like on your phone via the app store.
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And this would turn your smartphone as truly a general-purpose computer,
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you know, and you would have these awesome apps that you don't have in your PC
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because, well, the smartphone comes with other hardware functionalities.
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There's a camera, there's telemetry, there's a microphone,
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and you could bring software to a whole other level of experience and functionalities.
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And...
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I never looked at a smartphone like this,
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and now I feel like, oh, yeah, this is how I felt when I came in.
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That's how I felt when I got my first smartphone.
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Now everybody knows that I'm a bit older.
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Right.
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And I think Google understood the power of opening up their infrastructure
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to these type of contributions.
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12:42.400 --> 12:47.400
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Academically speaking, on a little bit more on the theoretical speaking,
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12:47.400 --> 12:51.400
|
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this strategic move has a name for it.
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12:51.400 --> 12:54.400
|
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It's called the power of the network effects.
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12:54.400 --> 12:57.400
|
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And what is the network effects?
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12:57.400 --> 13:02.400
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It means that any network, the value of this network,
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13:02.400 --> 13:06.400
|
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increase proportionally to the size of this network.
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13:06.400 --> 13:10.400
|
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So the bigger the network is, the more value it has.
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13:10.400 --> 13:14.400
|
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And that's why today, both Apple and Google,
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13:14.400 --> 13:18.400
|
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they don't want to lose control over their app stores
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13:18.400 --> 13:23.400
|
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because the app stores now it's a huge network of apps.
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13:23.400 --> 13:26.400
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And this network brings a lot of money to them.
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13:26.400 --> 13:31.400
|
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But aside from this, what really disrupt the market,
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13:31.400 --> 13:34.400
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in the end of the first decade of 2000s,
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13:34.400 --> 13:37.400
|
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we were talking about 2007 here, right,
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13:37.400 --> 13:42.400
|
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was when they opened up their infrastructure for apps,
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13:42.400 --> 13:45.400
|
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this disrupt completely the market,
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13:45.400 --> 13:48.400
|
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the dispute out of the market.
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13:48.400 --> 13:51.400
|
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Symbian, Nokia, they put out the palm.
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13:51.400 --> 13:54.400
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Remember palm, palm was super chic.
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13:54.400 --> 13:56.400
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So you're very young.
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13:56.400 --> 13:59.400
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No, I feel young again.
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13:59.400 --> 14:04.400
|
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But palm devices were the crème de la crème in the past.
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14:04.400 --> 14:09.400
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And they disrupted it.
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14:09.400 --> 14:12.400
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Now they're in museums.
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14:12.400 --> 14:15.400
|
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So Apple followed this,
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14:15.400 --> 14:19.400
|
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and they also opened up their infrastructure
|
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14:19.400 --> 14:21.400
|
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for external contributors.
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14:21.400 --> 14:26.400
|
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So the first version of the iPhone came without an app store.
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14:26.400 --> 14:29.400
|
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And there was what the first app store was,
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14:29.400 --> 14:31.400
|
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a free and open source one called CD.
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14:31.400 --> 14:33.400
|
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You could not install apps on it.
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14:33.400 --> 14:36.400
|
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No, no, the first version of the iPhone was completely closed
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14:36.400 --> 14:39.400
|
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and it came only with pre-installed apps.
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14:39.400 --> 14:42.400
|
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The first app store was a CD was a free and open source software.
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14:42.400 --> 14:46.400
|
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And two years later I don't know,
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14:46.400 --> 14:50.400
|
|
Apple changed the operating system in order to block CD.
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14:50.400 --> 14:54.400
|
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And now the only way to install external software
|
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14:54.400 --> 14:57.400
|
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on smartphones were via their own app store.
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14:57.400 --> 15:01.400
|
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So the control over app stores already has a long history,
|
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15:01.400 --> 15:03.400
|
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a very long history.
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15:03.400 --> 15:06.400
|
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So why am I saying all of this?
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15:06.400 --> 15:09.400
|
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Because Google did one step further
|
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15:09.400 --> 15:11.400
|
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to not only open the app store,
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15:11.400 --> 15:14.400
|
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but to open the entire operating system.
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15:14.400 --> 15:17.400
|
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So they opened the operating system to free and open source.
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15:17.400 --> 15:20.400
|
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So Android, it is, well, at least, you know,
|
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15:20.400 --> 15:23.400
|
|
parts of it, a free and open source project.
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15:23.400 --> 15:26.400
|
|
There is one, which is licensed into the app 82.
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15:26.400 --> 15:31.400
|
|
But the history doesn't end there, you know.
|
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15:31.400 --> 15:33.400
|
|
And it would be very easy to say,
|
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15:33.400 --> 15:38.400
|
|
yes, we have the most successful free and open source project of all time
|
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15:38.400 --> 15:41.400
|
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because billions of people are using it.
|
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15:41.400 --> 15:44.400
|
|
But the history unfortunately doesn't end there.
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15:44.400 --> 15:50.400
|
|
And Google has excerpt control over iOSP in different forms,
|
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15:50.400 --> 15:53.400
|
|
not only via the licensing aspect.
|
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|
15:53.400 --> 15:55.400
|
|
And we can talk about this.
|
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|
15:55.400 --> 16:01.400
|
|
How to control iOSP in a way that would hinder software freedom
|
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|
16:02.400 --> 16:05.400
|
|
to others to exercise this traditional way
|
|
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|
16:05.400 --> 16:10.400
|
|
that we see software freedom in such powerful ways
|
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|
|
16:10.400 --> 16:15.400
|
|
and anti-competitive ways that in 2018,
|
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|
|
16:15.400 --> 16:20.400
|
|
you know, Google got record fines from the commission
|
|
|
|
16:20.400 --> 16:24.400
|
|
because of this anti-competitive practice.
|
|
|
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16:24.400 --> 16:26.400
|
|
I can imagine what was this fine about
|
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16:26.400 --> 16:30.400
|
|
and like what was this EU commission saying there?
|
|
|
|
16:30.400 --> 16:34.400
|
|
So Google's strategy was a pretty clever one in the beginning
|
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|
|
16:34.400 --> 16:36.400
|
|
so they open up the platform.
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|
16:36.400 --> 16:40.400
|
|
And then suddenly, you know, if you were a manufacturer,
|
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|
16:40.400 --> 16:43.400
|
|
if you were a smart one manufacturer,
|
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|
|
16:43.400 --> 16:48.400
|
|
then you could adapt the functionalities
|
|
|
|
16:48.400 --> 16:51.400
|
|
of your devices to the operating system.
|
|
|
|
16:51.400 --> 16:55.400
|
|
And this was something truly revolutionary, you know.
|
|
|
|
16:55.400 --> 16:59.400
|
|
Because manufacturers, they always have the problem of
|
|
|
|
16:59.400 --> 17:01.400
|
|
the chicken and egg, you know.
|
|
|
|
17:01.400 --> 17:03.400
|
|
If you want a successful device,
|
|
|
|
17:03.400 --> 17:06.400
|
|
you need this operating system for it.
|
|
|
|
17:06.400 --> 17:09.400
|
|
But then, in order to have an operating system,
|
|
|
|
17:09.400 --> 17:11.400
|
|
you need a device for it.
|
|
|
|
17:11.400 --> 17:17.400
|
|
Let's put this on a context.
|
|
|
|
17:17.400 --> 17:21.400
|
|
Recently, I met some folks from risk five.
|
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|
17:21.400 --> 17:25.400
|
|
Risk five is an open hardware specification for chips
|
|
|
|
17:25.400 --> 17:30.400
|
|
and they were telling their talks exactly this problem.
|
|
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|
17:30.400 --> 17:34.400
|
|
They wanted to find a device that would enable them
|
|
|
|
17:34.400 --> 17:37.400
|
|
to have risk five, you know,
|
|
|
|
17:37.400 --> 17:40.400
|
|
and having this open architecture on laptops,
|
|
|
|
17:40.400 --> 17:43.400
|
|
but then they have to find an operating system for this.
|
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|
|
17:43.400 --> 17:46.400
|
|
And so it took several years for them,
|
|
|
|
17:46.400 --> 17:50.400
|
|
but yeah, Ubuntu agreed and then they found also a device manufacturer.
|
|
|
|
17:50.400 --> 17:53.400
|
|
But anyway, so let's go back to 2007.
|
|
|
|
17:53.400 --> 17:55.400
|
|
In 2018.
|
|
|
|
17:55.400 --> 17:57.400
|
|
No, no, I started with 2008.
|
|
|
|
17:57.400 --> 17:59.400
|
|
2018 is the fine, right?
|
|
|
|
17:59.400 --> 18:00.400
|
|
Yes, it is.
|
|
|
|
18:00.400 --> 18:02.400
|
|
Until we got there.
|
|
|
|
18:02.400 --> 18:04.400
|
|
So manufacturers were facing this problem.
|
|
|
|
18:04.400 --> 18:06.400
|
|
You know, and they said, okay.
|
|
|
|
18:06.400 --> 18:08.400
|
|
Okay, I have this cool device,
|
|
|
|
18:08.400 --> 18:09.400
|
|
but I need an operating system.
|
|
|
|
18:09.400 --> 18:13.400
|
|
But the operating system is very expensive to develop.
|
|
|
|
18:13.400 --> 18:16.400
|
|
You know, think about how many hours of work you need
|
|
|
|
18:16.400 --> 18:18.400
|
|
to have a cool operating system.
|
|
|
|
18:18.400 --> 18:19.400
|
|
And then you have apps.
|
|
|
|
18:19.400 --> 18:20.400
|
|
You need to add the apps.
|
|
|
|
18:20.400 --> 18:22.400
|
|
And then the apps should run on the operating system.
|
|
|
|
18:22.400 --> 18:25.400
|
|
And you know, how are we going to do this?
|
|
|
|
18:25.400 --> 18:29.400
|
|
You know, so Google came with a solution for this.
|
|
|
|
18:29.400 --> 18:31.400
|
|
And they said, look, we will have Android.
|
|
|
|
18:31.400 --> 18:35.400
|
|
Android will be open and you will be able to adapt your devices
|
|
|
|
18:35.400 --> 18:37.400
|
|
to have Android running on it.
|
|
|
|
18:37.400 --> 18:40.400
|
|
So they really solve this problem
|
|
|
|
18:40.400 --> 18:43.400
|
|
for many, many, many, many manufacturers.
|
|
|
|
18:43.400 --> 18:44.400
|
|
You know?
|
|
|
|
18:44.400 --> 18:46.400
|
|
So manufacturers, okay, cool.
|
|
|
|
18:46.400 --> 18:50.400
|
|
But then here comes the trick.
|
|
|
|
18:50.400 --> 18:51.400
|
|
You know?
|
|
|
|
18:51.400 --> 18:54.400
|
|
And I would like to introduce here in our talk
|
|
|
|
18:54.400 --> 18:56.400
|
|
how Android is organized.
|
|
|
|
18:56.400 --> 18:58.400
|
|
The Android stack, right?
|
|
|
|
18:58.400 --> 19:02.400
|
|
Because the Android stack is where Google exerted it
|
|
|
|
19:02.400 --> 19:06.400
|
|
and exerced control over OSP until today.
|
|
|
|
19:06.400 --> 19:07.400
|
|
You know?
|
|
|
|
19:07.400 --> 19:11.400
|
|
And this also what led the European Commission 2018
|
|
|
|
19:11.400 --> 19:14.400
|
|
to establish records finds.
|
|
|
|
19:14.400 --> 19:16.400
|
|
You know, it was really.
|
|
|
|
19:16.400 --> 19:18.400
|
|
I don't have the, I forgot the numbers.
|
|
|
|
19:18.400 --> 19:19.400
|
|
But I may be wrong.
|
|
|
|
19:19.400 --> 19:20.400
|
|
You can check.
|
|
|
|
19:20.400 --> 19:22.400
|
|
But it was on the billion scale.
|
|
|
|
19:22.400 --> 19:24.400
|
|
That's quite a lot of money.
|
|
|
|
19:24.400 --> 19:25.400
|
|
Very.
|
|
|
|
19:25.400 --> 19:28.400
|
|
Because with this, what I'm going to say right now,
|
|
|
|
19:28.400 --> 19:33.400
|
|
Google was able to lock in entirely all the manufacturers
|
|
|
|
19:33.400 --> 19:35.400
|
|
on the Android ecosystem.
|
|
|
|
19:35.400 --> 19:38.400
|
|
So by opening up the operating system layer
|
|
|
|
19:38.400 --> 19:41.400
|
|
to free and open source software,
|
|
|
|
19:41.400 --> 19:45.400
|
|
Google was able to immediately attract millions and millions
|
|
|
|
19:45.400 --> 19:49.400
|
|
of, you know, the developers that were interested
|
|
|
|
19:49.400 --> 19:52.400
|
|
into contributing to the platform that was already, you know,
|
|
|
|
19:52.400 --> 19:53.400
|
|
exploring.
|
|
|
|
19:53.400 --> 19:55.400
|
|
They said, okay, we're going to be there.
|
|
|
|
19:55.400 --> 19:58.400
|
|
And they were also able to attract the manufacturers.
|
|
|
|
19:58.400 --> 20:00.400
|
|
So they were able to bring together.
|
|
|
|
20:00.400 --> 20:03.400
|
|
And this is what makes a platform good.
|
|
|
|
20:03.400 --> 20:06.400
|
|
A platform brings different sides together.
|
|
|
|
20:06.400 --> 20:08.400
|
|
And Google did this with Android.
|
|
|
|
20:08.400 --> 20:09.400
|
|
Android is a platform.
|
|
|
|
20:09.400 --> 20:10.400
|
|
Yeah.
|
|
|
|
20:10.400 --> 20:12.400
|
|
So that other device manufacturers could use Android
|
|
|
|
20:12.400 --> 20:16.400
|
|
and just use, have a bit of a customized version.
|
|
|
|
20:16.400 --> 20:18.400
|
|
But they are then also part of this.
|
|
|
|
20:18.400 --> 20:21.400
|
|
And Google is like there providing the services.
|
|
|
|
20:21.400 --> 20:22.400
|
|
Yes.
|
|
|
|
20:22.400 --> 20:23.400
|
|
But here's the trick.
|
|
|
|
20:23.400 --> 20:27.400
|
|
Because as soon as you license your operating system
|
|
|
|
20:27.400 --> 20:30.400
|
|
as free and open source software,
|
|
|
|
20:30.400 --> 20:34.400
|
|
this gives them the permission to market, you know,
|
|
|
|
20:34.400 --> 20:38.400
|
|
they can market and they can have their own version of it.
|
|
|
|
20:38.400 --> 20:39.400
|
|
Right?
|
|
|
|
20:39.400 --> 20:42.400
|
|
And well, we could have.
|
|
|
|
20:42.400 --> 20:43.400
|
|
Right?
|
|
|
|
20:43.400 --> 20:46.400
|
|
And I think this is the beauty of free and open source movement.
|
|
|
|
20:46.400 --> 20:48.400
|
|
We can have, you know, many, many of them.
|
|
|
|
20:48.400 --> 20:49.400
|
|
Right?
|
|
|
|
20:49.400 --> 20:53.400
|
|
But then, and this only became clear in 2018.
|
|
|
|
20:53.400 --> 20:57.400
|
|
Because, you know, it was in 2018, where the world understood
|
|
|
|
20:57.400 --> 21:02.400
|
|
how Google have this strategy around our speed that, you know,
|
|
|
|
21:02.400 --> 21:06.400
|
|
that didn't allow alternatives to strive.
|
|
|
|
21:06.400 --> 21:09.400
|
|
How they have to network and control, basically.
|
|
|
|
21:09.400 --> 21:10.400
|
|
Yes.
|
|
|
|
21:10.400 --> 21:16.400
|
|
And so via agreements with manufacturers, side agreements, right?
|
|
|
|
21:16.400 --> 21:19.400
|
|
So it was not on the license, you know,
|
|
|
|
21:19.400 --> 21:23.400
|
|
it was side agreements on the compatibility side.
|
|
|
|
21:23.400 --> 21:27.400
|
|
You know, so Google said, okay, so we wanted to be compatible
|
|
|
|
21:27.400 --> 21:28.400
|
|
with Android.
|
|
|
|
21:28.400 --> 21:31.400
|
|
You know, we have to sign this agreement with me, this side agreement.
|
|
|
|
21:31.400 --> 21:33.400
|
|
So we have the license here on one hand,
|
|
|
|
21:33.400 --> 21:36.400
|
|
but there is the agreement on the other hand.
|
|
|
|
21:36.400 --> 21:41.400
|
|
And these agreement, there were clauses forbidding manufacturers
|
|
|
|
21:41.400 --> 21:43.400
|
|
to fork Android.
|
|
|
|
21:43.400 --> 21:46.400
|
|
So it was called anti-forking agreements.
|
|
|
|
21:46.400 --> 21:51.400
|
|
You know, if you are, if you decided to fork Android,
|
|
|
|
21:51.400 --> 21:56.400
|
|
then you would not be allowed to install the Google suite.
|
|
|
|
21:56.400 --> 21:58.400
|
|
And what is the Google suite?
|
|
|
|
21:58.400 --> 22:01.400
|
|
Google suite is their Google Play Store.
|
|
|
|
22:01.400 --> 22:06.400
|
|
The security aspects of the Play Store, you know,
|
|
|
|
22:06.400 --> 22:11.400
|
|
and all the apps that Google in the old history has developed
|
|
|
|
22:11.400 --> 22:16.400
|
|
and has acquired YouTube, Chrome, and many, many other apps
|
|
|
|
22:16.400 --> 22:20.400
|
|
that people, well, they like to have on their smartphones, you know.
|
|
|
|
22:20.400 --> 22:22.400
|
|
You mean like the Google services that they...
|
|
|
|
22:22.400 --> 22:26.400
|
|
The Google services, the Google service, you know.
|
|
|
|
22:26.400 --> 22:31.400
|
|
And this was a very strong, disincentive
|
|
|
|
22:31.400 --> 22:34.400
|
|
and very strong threat to manufacturers, you know.
|
|
|
|
22:34.400 --> 22:41.400
|
|
Otherwise, they would go back pre-2007 when they had to develop
|
|
|
|
22:41.400 --> 22:44.400
|
|
their own operating system, you know.
|
|
|
|
22:44.400 --> 22:49.400
|
|
And it's super, super cool.
|
|
|
|
22:49.400 --> 22:52.400
|
|
I mean, cool in one hand as a researcher to read about it,
|
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22:52.400 --> 22:55.400
|
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but in other hand, it's very sad.
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22:55.400 --> 23:00.400
|
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But because they were managed to keep basically
|
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23:00.400 --> 23:04.400
|
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the entire ecosystem of Android manufacturers
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23:04.400 --> 23:07.400
|
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into this very strict locking.
|
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23:07.400 --> 23:10.400
|
|
Until 2018, when the Commission said,
|
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23:10.400 --> 23:14.400
|
|
man, this is super anti-competitive, you know.
|
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23:14.400 --> 23:18.400
|
|
And there's a problem there, you know.
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23:18.400 --> 23:21.400
|
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And on a side note, it's very interesting,
|
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23:21.400 --> 23:25.400
|
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because you can read several analysis in 2007
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23:25.400 --> 23:31.400
|
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that historically, Microsoft was able to do this
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23:31.400 --> 23:34.400
|
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with laptops of computers.
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23:34.400 --> 23:37.400
|
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And in 2008, the vice manufacturer said,
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23:37.400 --> 23:40.400
|
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we don't want it to have a Microsoft 2.0 in our lives.
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23:40.400 --> 23:43.400
|
|
And that's why we need an open source solution.
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23:43.400 --> 23:46.400
|
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And Google came with an open source solution,
|
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23:46.400 --> 23:48.400
|
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but Google were able to...
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23:49.400 --> 23:54.400
|
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But on the positive side of things, you know,
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23:54.400 --> 23:57.400
|
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not to be standing that the device manufacturers
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23:57.400 --> 24:03.400
|
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got locked in in this environment, you know.
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24:03.400 --> 24:07.400
|
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The nature, the free open source nature of iOSP
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24:07.400 --> 24:11.400
|
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allowed for fork if you were not a manufacturer.
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24:11.400 --> 24:13.400
|
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So, you know, if you don't have a device
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24:13.400 --> 24:16.400
|
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and you don't want it to enter in these compatibility agreements
|
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24:16.400 --> 24:19.400
|
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with Google, you could fork, you know.
|
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24:19.400 --> 24:21.400
|
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And you could create custom ROMs.
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24:21.400 --> 24:22.400
|
|
Yes, exactly.
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24:22.400 --> 24:26.400
|
|
What changed then with the release of Android 16?
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24:26.400 --> 24:30.400
|
|
So, what, like, this was before 2025.
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24:30.400 --> 24:33.400
|
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But what happened afterwards, like, with Android 16,
|
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24:33.400 --> 24:35.400
|
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there was a policy ship.
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24:35.400 --> 24:36.400
|
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Yes.
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24:36.400 --> 24:37.400
|
|
Precisely.
|
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24:37.400 --> 24:40.400
|
|
And this is completely related now to alternative ROMs.
|
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24:40.400 --> 24:42.400
|
|
And what is alternative ROMs?
|
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|
24:42.400 --> 24:46.400
|
|
For audience, audience that is hearing this term for the first time.
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24:46.400 --> 24:50.400
|
|
You know, technically, this is not a correct term
|
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|
24:50.400 --> 24:53.400
|
|
to alternative ROMs, because we're not talking about ROMs,
|
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|
24:53.400 --> 24:54.400
|
|
precisely.
|
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24:54.400 --> 24:56.400
|
|
But basically, alternative operating systems
|
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24:56.400 --> 24:57.400
|
|
that are based on Android.
|
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|
24:57.400 --> 25:01.400
|
|
So, there is Android stock that is developed and controlled by Google.
|
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25:01.400 --> 25:06.400
|
|
But then you can fork this and then you can make your own customized,
|
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|
|
25:07.400 --> 25:10.400
|
|
you know, altered version of Android.
|
|
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|
25:10.400 --> 25:11.400
|
|
There are several of them.
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25:11.400 --> 25:15.400
|
|
You know, there are the very privacy-oriented ones like Grafino AS,
|
|
|
|
25:15.400 --> 25:20.400
|
|
there are ones that are intended to allow a great deal of compatibility
|
|
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|
25:20.400 --> 25:23.400
|
|
with different types of devices like LanoAjo AS.
|
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|
25:23.400 --> 25:27.400
|
|
There are other ones like Morena, EOS.
|
|
|
|
25:27.400 --> 25:29.400
|
|
There are many of them out there.
|
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|
25:29.400 --> 25:30.400
|
|
Many, you know.
|
|
|
|
25:30.400 --> 25:33.400
|
|
We also have them with the free-your-and-work initiative.
|
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|
25:33.400 --> 25:34.400
|
|
We have a page.
|
|
|
|
25:34.400 --> 25:37.400
|
|
We can link that in the show and other people can look it up.
|
|
|
|
25:37.400 --> 25:38.400
|
|
Yeah, yeah.
|
|
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|
25:38.400 --> 25:41.400
|
|
So, they come in different flavors.
|
|
|
|
25:41.400 --> 25:44.400
|
|
But I think security and privacy are the main drivers.
|
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|
|
25:44.400 --> 25:48.400
|
|
People, they want their Android devices to be a little bit more secure
|
|
|
|
25:48.400 --> 25:54.400
|
|
than they search for these alternative Android operating systems.
|
|
|
|
25:54.400 --> 25:58.400
|
|
But again, I would like to highlight that these are not Linux phones.
|
|
|
|
25:58.400 --> 26:00.400
|
|
They depend on Android.
|
|
|
|
26:00.400 --> 26:06.400
|
|
And they depend on how information is made available on Android.
|
|
|
|
26:06.400 --> 26:12.400
|
|
And this shift that you just mentioned is Google hindering
|
|
|
|
26:12.400 --> 26:17.400
|
|
a big deal of interoperability information inside OSP
|
|
|
|
26:17.400 --> 26:24.400
|
|
that can create a big struggle for these alternative ROMs to survive.
|
|
|
|
26:24.400 --> 26:28.400
|
|
You know, so it's basically enclosing,
|
|
|
|
26:28.400 --> 26:35.400
|
|
it's a step on enclosing more of a OSP restricting these alternative ROMs.
|
|
|
|
26:35.400 --> 26:40.400
|
|
And together with my research group, we work on this,
|
|
|
|
26:40.400 --> 26:43.400
|
|
we think that this is not compatible with this law
|
|
|
|
26:43.400 --> 26:46.400
|
|
that we mentioned in the beginning of our podcast, Digital Market Act.
|
|
|
|
26:46.400 --> 26:50.400
|
|
We do believe that interoperability, mandating this law is very broad.
|
|
|
|
26:50.400 --> 26:56.400
|
|
And this shifts what answering is that Google is stopped to provide
|
|
|
|
26:56.400 --> 27:01.400
|
|
some type of information that are very important for alternative ROMs.
|
|
|
|
27:01.400 --> 27:06.400
|
|
For example, interoperability information regarding the device,
|
|
|
|
27:06.400 --> 27:09.400
|
|
called the device trees, interoperability information
|
|
|
|
27:09.400 --> 27:14.400
|
|
regards to the source code history, you know, and also hardware drives.
|
|
|
|
27:14.400 --> 27:19.400
|
|
So this were type of information that Google decided to hinder
|
|
|
|
27:19.400 --> 27:23.400
|
|
or to publish later, sometimes they blocked,
|
|
|
|
27:23.400 --> 27:25.400
|
|
but sometimes they decided to publish later.
|
|
|
|
27:25.400 --> 27:30.400
|
|
So it created barriers for these alternative operating systems
|
|
|
|
27:30.400 --> 27:34.400
|
|
to compete with Google stock Android.
|
|
|
|
27:34.400 --> 27:38.400
|
|
This does this, like, hinders them to continue to developing
|
|
|
|
27:38.400 --> 27:43.400
|
|
those alternative ROMs or will there be a way around?
|
|
|
|
27:43.400 --> 27:46.400
|
|
Like, because you did some any research,
|
|
|
|
27:46.400 --> 27:50.400
|
|
you highlighted, you did some interviews with developers,
|
|
|
|
27:50.400 --> 27:52.400
|
|
as far as I understood.
|
|
|
|
27:52.400 --> 27:55.400
|
|
And like, what was their reaction towards this?
|
|
|
|
27:55.400 --> 28:01.400
|
|
So their reaction was quite negative and very worrisome.
|
|
|
|
28:01.400 --> 28:05.400
|
|
And they're saying this puts high loads on us
|
|
|
|
28:05.400 --> 28:09.400
|
|
to reverse engineer this type of information.
|
|
|
|
28:09.400 --> 28:12.400
|
|
And the thing is that outside of this law,
|
|
|
|
28:12.400 --> 28:15.400
|
|
this would create already competitive issues.
|
|
|
|
28:15.400 --> 28:18.400
|
|
But then the difference between competition law
|
|
|
|
28:18.400 --> 28:21.400
|
|
and this particular law, the DMA that we're talking about,
|
|
|
|
28:21.400 --> 28:26.400
|
|
is that in competition law, we need to wait until we see the harm.
|
|
|
|
28:26.400 --> 28:30.400
|
|
So we have to wait some years, and then...
|
|
|
|
28:30.400 --> 28:35.400
|
|
Oh, yes, indeed, there are some harm in the community.
|
|
|
|
28:35.400 --> 28:38.400
|
|
But this law is different.
|
|
|
|
28:38.400 --> 28:41.400
|
|
There is already a do-and-don't list.
|
|
|
|
28:41.400 --> 28:43.400
|
|
We don't need to wait.
|
|
|
|
28:43.400 --> 28:46.400
|
|
I think that blocking this type of interoperability information
|
|
|
|
28:46.400 --> 28:48.400
|
|
is already against this law.
|
|
|
|
28:48.400 --> 28:52.400
|
|
And that's why we tried to build a legal argument for this.
|
|
|
|
28:52.400 --> 28:55.400
|
|
Look, we do believe that inside Google,
|
|
|
|
28:55.400 --> 28:59.400
|
|
there's a lot of people that believe in free and open-source software.
|
|
|
|
28:59.400 --> 29:02.400
|
|
Google is a company that was founded on these ideals.
|
|
|
|
29:02.400 --> 29:05.400
|
|
They have a very strong Ospo.
|
|
|
|
29:05.400 --> 29:09.400
|
|
They have a very strong food on the community.
|
|
|
|
29:09.400 --> 29:12.400
|
|
And therefore, we do believe that this type of work
|
|
|
|
29:12.400 --> 29:16.400
|
|
helps them to re-evaluate their practices
|
|
|
|
29:16.400 --> 29:22.400
|
|
and to let alternatives inside the free and open-source movement to thrive.
|
|
|
|
29:22.400 --> 29:24.400
|
|
I hope it will.
|
|
|
|
29:24.400 --> 29:28.400
|
|
But was this also like the researchers in the interviews also see this?
|
|
|
|
29:28.400 --> 29:33.400
|
|
Or was it more like that they are afraid that they will have to stop?
|
|
|
|
29:33.400 --> 29:36.400
|
|
I mean...
|
|
|
|
29:36.400 --> 29:38.400
|
|
Sorry, not researchers, but developers.
|
|
|
|
29:38.400 --> 29:41.400
|
|
Yes, exactly.
|
|
|
|
29:41.400 --> 29:46.400
|
|
So I think that when you depend on a platform,
|
|
|
|
29:46.400 --> 29:51.400
|
|
any platform, there is an imbalance.
|
|
|
|
29:51.400 --> 29:55.400
|
|
And this is normal in any platform.
|
|
|
|
29:55.400 --> 30:02.400
|
|
Unless the platform is really democratically governed.
|
|
|
|
30:02.400 --> 30:05.400
|
|
But otherwise, there is always this imbalance.
|
|
|
|
30:05.400 --> 30:07.400
|
|
And we are trying...
|
|
|
|
30:07.400 --> 30:08.400
|
|
Like the hierarchy.
|
|
|
|
30:08.400 --> 30:09.400
|
|
Yes.
|
|
|
|
30:09.400 --> 30:13.400
|
|
And we are trying with regulation to level a little bit more the playing field.
|
|
|
|
30:13.400 --> 30:18.400
|
|
So at least we can have alternatives inside this ecosystem.
|
|
|
|
30:18.400 --> 30:22.400
|
|
So end users can choose and can have more competition among themselves,
|
|
|
|
30:22.400 --> 30:26.400
|
|
among alternative ROMs and stock Android itself.
|
|
|
|
30:26.400 --> 30:33.400
|
|
So I really don't want to have only one provider of Android.
|
|
|
|
30:33.400 --> 30:39.400
|
|
I think Android is a marvelous technological speaking operating system.
|
|
|
|
30:39.400 --> 30:44.400
|
|
And since it is fundamentally free and open source on its core,
|
|
|
|
30:44.400 --> 30:47.400
|
|
I think that this alternative ROMs they should thrive.
|
|
|
|
30:47.400 --> 30:52.400
|
|
They should allow people to have alternatives to install on their Android devices.
|
|
|
|
30:52.400 --> 30:59.400
|
|
And this is the goal of our work in the DMA is to inject more competition into Android ecosystem.
|
|
|
|
30:59.400 --> 31:04.400
|
|
Do you think there is an actual chance that a DMA can help us here to predict
|
|
|
|
31:04.400 --> 31:08.400
|
|
Free Software developers or is it a two-flastiger?
|
|
|
|
31:08.400 --> 31:09.400
|
|
No.
|
|
|
|
31:09.400 --> 31:14.400
|
|
No, I do think it's a viable instrument to search for.
|
|
|
|
31:14.400 --> 31:18.400
|
|
But look, it's not a miracle's instrument.
|
|
|
|
31:18.400 --> 31:20.400
|
|
Nowadays, in the EU...
|
|
|
|
31:20.400 --> 31:23.400
|
|
I want to have that because make it like that.
|
|
|
|
31:23.400 --> 31:26.400
|
|
Look, we are talking about digital sovereignty.
|
|
|
|
31:26.400 --> 31:28.400
|
|
We are talking about democratization.
|
|
|
|
31:28.400 --> 31:30.400
|
|
We are talking about the next generation of the internet.
|
|
|
|
31:30.400 --> 31:34.400
|
|
We are talking about the future of the web.
|
|
|
|
31:34.400 --> 31:36.400
|
|
The DMA is only one instrument.
|
|
|
|
31:36.400 --> 31:38.400
|
|
And I am a legal person.
|
|
|
|
31:38.400 --> 31:40.400
|
|
And that's why I talk a lot about the DMA.
|
|
|
|
31:40.400 --> 31:46.400
|
|
But if you go to any other strategist in the FSC in my research group at the university,
|
|
|
|
31:46.400 --> 31:49.400
|
|
there are people looking into other aspects.
|
|
|
|
31:49.400 --> 31:55.400
|
|
So we need to talk how to fundamentally change digital markets to a more democratic one.
|
|
|
|
31:55.400 --> 31:58.400
|
|
But DMA can help certainly, but alone it cannot do.
|
|
|
|
31:58.400 --> 32:00.400
|
|
So we need funding for Free Software.
|
|
|
|
32:00.400 --> 32:02.400
|
|
We really need funding for Free Software.
|
|
|
|
32:02.400 --> 32:06.400
|
|
And not only VC type of fund, we need a really public money type of fund
|
|
|
|
32:06.400 --> 32:11.400
|
|
that will enable collective effort on our society to Free Software.
|
|
|
|
32:11.400 --> 32:13.400
|
|
That is a public good.
|
|
|
|
32:13.400 --> 32:15.400
|
|
Free software is a public good.
|
|
|
|
32:15.400 --> 32:16.400
|
|
It's digital commons.
|
|
|
|
32:16.400 --> 32:19.400
|
|
Think about a park in our city.
|
|
|
|
32:19.400 --> 32:20.400
|
|
Think about a highway.
|
|
|
|
32:20.400 --> 32:23.400
|
|
Think about a railroad.
|
|
|
|
32:23.400 --> 32:25.400
|
|
They are public.
|
|
|
|
32:25.400 --> 32:27.400
|
|
And Free Software is the same.
|
|
|
|
32:27.400 --> 32:31.400
|
|
So therefore, we need to diversify the sources of funding.
|
|
|
|
32:31.400 --> 32:36.400
|
|
We need to diversify the strategy in order to make the digital markets more democratic.
|
|
|
|
32:36.400 --> 32:40.400
|
|
DMA can help, but we need many, many other venues and instruments.
|
|
|
|
32:40.400 --> 32:41.400
|
|
I absolutely agree.
|
|
|
|
32:41.400 --> 32:44.400
|
|
We need strategic and long term funding, especially.
|
|
|
|
32:44.400 --> 32:46.400
|
|
So it does not need to be short term.
|
|
|
|
32:46.400 --> 32:49.400
|
|
It needs to be really long term so that others can rely on it.
|
|
|
|
32:49.400 --> 32:51.400
|
|
And that it will be there.
|
|
|
|
32:51.400 --> 32:54.400
|
|
What's the European Commission's perspective on this?
|
|
|
|
32:54.400 --> 32:59.400
|
|
Do you know if they think they will act up on the shift in the Google policy?
|
|
|
|
32:59.400 --> 33:01.400
|
|
Yes, we will talk with them.
|
|
|
|
33:01.400 --> 33:03.400
|
|
They are monitoring this.
|
|
|
|
33:03.400 --> 33:10.400
|
|
And we are also monitoring their activity on this.
|
|
|
|
33:10.400 --> 33:18.400
|
|
A very good news I can share is that last week the European Commission started a new regulatory process
|
|
|
|
33:18.400 --> 33:26.400
|
|
to help Google to comply with the digital markets act in relation to interoperability and AI.
|
|
|
|
33:26.400 --> 33:30.400
|
|
AI falls a little bit out of scope of what we are talking about here,
|
|
|
|
33:30.400 --> 33:36.400
|
|
but the interoperability part for sure is included on the scope of this.
|
|
|
|
33:36.400 --> 33:40.400
|
|
And we will make sure on our research that the university
|
|
|
|
33:40.400 --> 33:44.400
|
|
or in our monitoring type of work that we do in the FSFE,
|
|
|
|
33:44.400 --> 33:50.400
|
|
to have DMA being forest on a Free Software developer friendly way.
|
|
|
|
33:50.400 --> 33:51.400
|
|
This is good to know.
|
|
|
|
33:51.400 --> 33:54.400
|
|
I'm very happy that there's a goal for us.
|
|
|
|
33:54.400 --> 34:00.400
|
|
So to finalize this, do you think that the DMA can actually help here?
|
|
|
|
34:00.400 --> 34:03.400
|
|
Like that it's protecting Free Software developers?
|
|
|
|
34:03.400 --> 34:04.400
|
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Yes or no answer?
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34:04.400 --> 34:05.400
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Yes.
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34:05.400 --> 34:06.400
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Perfect.
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34:06.400 --> 34:07.400
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Thank you so much.
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34:07.400 --> 34:08.400
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I'm very much looking forward to this.
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34:09.400 --> 34:11.400
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How can the community help now?
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34:11.400 --> 34:14.400
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Oh, that's perhaps the most important question.
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34:14.400 --> 34:17.400
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And I'll try to be very concise on this.
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34:17.400 --> 34:25.400
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I'm very, very grateful for the Android developers from different operating systems that help us to understand all of this.
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34:25.400 --> 34:27.400
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And they were so nice.
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34:27.400 --> 34:34.400
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And I will make sure that in our next I love Free Software today to have a very beautiful message to all of them out there.
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34:34.400 --> 34:38.400
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But how the community can help is with technical advice to us,
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34:38.400 --> 34:44.400
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you know, spreading the world about this and leveraging our position together.
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34:44.400 --> 34:46.400
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So we have a coalition.
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34:46.400 --> 34:50.400
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We have an allies together and say, look, this is important for the whole movement.
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34:50.400 --> 34:51.400
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Thank you, Lucas.
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34:51.400 --> 34:52.400
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Thank you so much for being here.
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34:52.400 --> 34:54.400
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Thank you so much for walking us through this.
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34:54.400 --> 34:56.400
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And yeah, thank you for taking the time.
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34:56.400 --> 34:58.400
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The pleasure is always my thank you so much.
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34:58.400 --> 34:59.400
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This was really interesting.
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35:00.400 --> 35:07.400
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I'm, yeah, I'm now really much looking forward to the community coming back to us and letting us know what they think as well.
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35:07.400 --> 35:11.400
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Thank you also for the first live edition of the software freedom podcast.
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35:11.400 --> 35:13.400
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Thank you so much for being here.
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35:15.400 --> 35:17.400
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This was the software freedom podcast.
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35:17.400 --> 35:22.400
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If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and rated.
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35:22.400 --> 35:28.400
|
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Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explore the importance of software freedom and its impact on our digital lives.
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35:29.400 --> 35:34.400
|
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This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe,
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35:34.400 --> 35:39.400
|
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and we are a charity that works in promoting software freedom.
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35:39.400 --> 35:43.400
|
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If you like our work, please consider supporting us for the nation.
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35:43.400 --> 35:48.400
|
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You can find more information under fsfe.org/donate
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35:48.400 --> 35:50.400
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Thank you so much for listening.
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35:50.400 --> 35:51.400
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Bye-bye.
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35:59.400 --> 36:01.400
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Bye-bye.
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</div>
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</pre>
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<p><a href="/news/podcast/2026/episode-46.html">Back to the episode SFP#46</a></p>
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